SKF NOTE: Here is something Max Roach told me in the early 1980s. I, of course, already had a high appreciation for drummers’ contributions to music. But Max’s words kicked my appreciation up several steps.
I don’t have Max’s exact words in front of me, but these words are very, very close to Max’s exact words:
An A major chord is played the same in jazz as it is in classical music. The makeup of chords doesn’t change from one music style to another.
What changes, what distinguishes one style of music from another, is rhythm.
Scott K Fish in the obligatory drummer with cigarette pose
SKF NOTE: I enjoy listening to people tell me about their life passions. Maybe it’s what they do for a living, or may maybe it’s what they do for a hobby. That doesn’t matter. If a person is passionate about a subject, I enjoy conversing with them about it. I learn something from them.
But I rarely find people curious about drummers and drumming. Sometimes people ask me about drummers and drumming, and when I answer them, I see the veil fall over their eyes. Or their eyes dart about, looking for someone else to talk to.
I’m not a boring person. That much I know. And for the longest time I assumed most people have no interest in drummers and drumming.
But this morning I’m thinking anew. Maybe I’m confronting this challenge: Figure out a way to frame the conversation so non-drummers will want to know more about the instrument and the people who play it.
Also, I’m thinking maybe my experience isn’t unique to drummers. Maybe piano players and guitar players, bass players and cellists — maybe their world is full of people who could not care less about their respective instruments.
SKF NOTE: My Carol Kaye transcript, and other of my backgrounder interviews, prompted questioning from some readers about West coast musicians recording early Motown records.
Several musicians and other music industry people told me some (many?) of those Motown recordings took place in Armin Steiner‘s garage studio in Los Angeles. Other musicians and music industry people have a different story.
With that in mind, here are two interview segments of Armin Steiner talking about recording Motown songs in his studio. The first and longest segment is from the transcript of an interview from the early ’80s by percussionist Mark Stevens and Armin Steiner. Mr. Stevens interviewed a few noted recording engineers and put together a Modern Drummerfeature story on miking and recording drums.
The second segment is from a 2001 MIX magazine interview with Mr. Steiner by Maureen Droney.
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Mark Stevens: I find it very interesting, and I wondered if I could get you to talk about, some of the early stuff that you did. At that time, sometimes you knew who the [studio] musicians were and sometimes you didn’t. With Motown, you never were exactly sure who it was.
Armin Steiner: No. We pretty much had the same people playing most of the time.
MS: But the engineer at that point didn’t seem to get as much recognition.
AS: His name never was put on any of those early albums. I don’t know I was responsible for too much, actually.
It mostly started out in my garage studio — which was a wonderful room. It was all wood. Everything sounded good in that room. Maybe we all got spoiled. We built certain equalizers. This was 1964, I believe.
I think I was one of the first people to use a condensor microphone — a U-47, as a matter of fact — over a drumkit. Not close up. Maybe four feet over the drums.
At that time we were using particularly Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer. And in many cases we had two drummers: both Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer. And sometimes three basses.
In fact, a typical rhythm section consisted of Hal Blaine, Earl Palmer, Ray Pullman was playing bass, Bill Pittman was playing a Dan Electro bass. In those days that was a new instrument. That’s how they got the click. Then they would have another guy playing string bass in order to get the real low tones.
Bill Strange playing guitar, and Glen Campbell. Third guitar might be Mike Deasy.
Then they would have a percussionist in the corner. And I developed an isolation booth for the singer.
Then we would have a couple of saxes, maybe, at that time. Boy! It was a rocking rhythm section. I can remember the sound even after all these years.
This was a band that consistently played on all these records, many of which people thought had been recorded in Detroit. There was a great similarity between the room in Motown and the room out here.
We did a lot of records with The Supremes, Marvin Gaye, Martha and the Vandellas, and all the major groups in those days. The Four Tops. It was interesting because we were experimenting in those days. There no given rule.
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mixonline.com RECORDING Armin Steiner Armin Steiner is a self-described survivor, having achieved the kind of career longevity that, in the music business, eludes all but a select few. 5/01/2001 — Author: MAUREEN DRONEY
From that moment on, word started traveling. Motown got interested, and I was busy all the time. I had Glen Campbell, Billy Strange, Tommy Tedesco, Dennis Budamir, all these guitar players sitting there at my house. There was Ray Pohlman, one of the truly great Fender bass players and the first man to actually build a distortion device. Hal Blaine, Earl Palmer, Joe Osborne, Larry Knechtal, Bill Pittman, Mike Deasy and, of course, Carol Kaye. I’d get a call at three in the morning from Herb Alpert saying, “I’ve got to overdub a tambourine on this piece.” I’d be in my pajamas and I’d walk up there and we’d do it — that was that. I used to have The Supremes up there, Marvin Gaye — my mother used to cook for them. Stevie Wonder was in when he was 9 years old. People think I’m making this stuff up, but it’s true. As a matter of fact, I did a film session with Stevie awhile back, and he remembered both me and my studio.
SKF NOTE: In the early 1980s, when I spoke with musician Carol Kaye, I felt incredibly fortunate. I still feel that way. I was working to put together a history of rock drummers that, at times, was tough to piece together. This was pre-internet and a time when drummers were just starting to gain recognition for their pivotal role in music history. Ron Spagnardi’s Modern Drummer magazine helped in that regard in a big way.
This is a transcript from the early 1980s, I’m sure, of Carol Kaye’s half of our interview. I transcribed none of my questions. My interest at the time was in what Ms. Kaye had to say. I would remember what questions I asked. So in the interest of time, I limited my manual typewriter transcribing to Carol Kaye’s comments.
Ours was a phone interview taped to audio cassette. I was in my office at Modern Drummer. Carol was in California in, I believe, her home. I don’t remember specifically how she and I met, or the circumstances leading up to this interview. I might have been given Carol’s name and number by another musician. But I think I found her phone number on my own.
As with some of my other background interviews, Carol has some intriguing stories about Motown recording sessions. And we learn more about session drummer Jesse Sailes. Then Carol speaks about working with Phil Spector and other hit — she calls them “biggies” — records on which she played either guitar or bass.
I was unable to fact check every one of Ms. Kaye’s memories. But I was able to fact check many of them — and found no conflicts. Maybe some other writer or blogger has already solved the various Motown session stories. And maybe Carol Kaye’s remarks here include a missing piece or two of the puzzle.
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Carol Kaye: We were recording in a studio above a garage. Armin Steiner‘s garage. We did an awful lot of records there for about two or three years. And the first drummer I worked with was Jesse Sailes. He told Motown about me because I’d worked a few other kind of record dates with Jesse. He’s a Dixieland drummer who plays with Teddy Buckner out at Disneyland now. He had done an awful lot of Motown.
After that came Earl Palmer. And then they used Paul Humphrey on a very few of them. It was mostly Jesse Sailes first and then Earl Palmer later. Earl played on some of the biggies like Bernadette and Love Child.
The Lewis Sisters were two white girls who couldn’t really sing, and we spent a lot of time trying to get tracks for them. And we come to find out it was The Supremes, The Temptations, and all that other stuff.
I met Stevie Wonder there as a kid because I played on I Was Made to Love Her. Now, Jamie Jamerson was in contention with that and we talked about that. So I listened to the record again and I said, “No, that’s me because I can remember the mistakes I was making.” But I think what may have happened is that they tried to cut it back East and they just gave those guys booze, see. Maybe it didn’t turn out just right. But that is definitely me playing on that. That’s Earl Palmer on drums too.
They [Motown] did so many wrong things according to the Union back then. They really kept quiet about what they did. Nobody really knew the inside workings of it. One guy did, [a Hollywood contractor] named Ben Barrett. He’s the master contractor in town. When Motown got into some financial difficulties, he stepped in there and loaned them his license — about 1967 or so — and pulled them out of the difficulty that they were in. They had quite a few hits on the market, but they ran into some mone problems and they could have failed at that point. But Ben Barrett stepped in and shaped them up and helped them.
The last records I did, they were using a big band and it was with the Union’s blessing. And they were using a couple of drummers all the time. Benny Benjamin did the stuff back in Detroit. So, I don’t know anything about the Detroit gang.
They used all the best players. Now, toward the end of the time when I worked with them they used a guy named Ed Greene out in L.A. And he was a very good groove drummer.
So I worked for Motown from about ’62 through ’69. A lot of that stuff I played guitar on — the very first stuff like Come On Do The Jerk and a whole bunch of early hits. Jesse got me in there and I didn’t play bass until about the first of ’64.
So, the very first stuff — I played guitar on. You hear me do riff patterns and that kind of thing. I played on a lot of Martha and the Vandellas. I played the six-string bass guitar on Dancing in the Streets. That was done at Gold Star. It was either Sharkey Hall or Earl Palmer on that. Jesse Sailes plays all the stuff at the Steiner garage things. I think it was Jesse playing on I Was Made to Love Her.
Jamie Jamerson was in Detroit. He didn’t move to Los Angeles until ’69 or ’70, ’71, I think. I’m not trying to take away from him. But I don’t think those guys back there knew about the West coast guys.
I played on all the Phil Spector stuff with Hal Blaine, and all the Beach Boys stuff. All the dates. But it was all guitar except, the last big hit that Phil Spector had, I played bass on. I played on all the Beach Boys stuff with Hal.
I played bass on Wichita Lineman and Joe Cocker’s Feelin’ Alright. Some of the biggies. Good Vibrations, and [Love Theme from] Romeo & Juliet by [Henry] Mancini. My work was kind of varied, but I’m mostly a jazz player. I gave up a jazz career in the late ’50s to do all that.
I never really wanted to do studio work. I never tried to break in. I wanted to play. But then it was a chance to make some money, and I realized the money…. I said, “Okay. I’ve got kids.” And I was working a horrible day job. I was working days and playing nights both.
John Guerin
Hal Blaine was never quite the jazz drummer that he wanted to be. But Earl Palmer was. And Paul Humphrey. And Johnny Guerin was. Those cats were really hot, hot jazz players when they first got in the studios.
Hal’s a beautiful person and he worked his tail off. Because I was right there and I saw them just beat him to death for an hour before they’d even touch us. Just trying to get a balance on the drums. And he’d come up with some beautiful little things on the drums. He’d be sitting there doing his crossword puzzles and he’d be thinking abut some thing and say, “Yeah. I can do this and make it better.” And he did.
But I want to raise the consciousness of music in this country so we can go and get car insurance without feeling like a dog.
I play on the whole album of Pet Sounds. And then I’m on Heroes and Villains, Good Vibrations. There’s a few I’m not playing bass on because the early Beach Boys — I played guitar on. Some of the surfing stuff like, Surf, Surf, Surf. [SKF NOTE: I’m not sure what song Carol Kaye means.]. I played rhythm. Tommy Tedesco played lead.
The Beach Boys never played on their records. But, Carl [Wilson] did occasionally. Like on the opening of Sloop John B. That’s Carl playing on that. I played bass on that. That’s one of my favorite records.
Good Vibrations took 12 record dates. It took us a long time to groove. But everything on that record came out of Brian [Wilson]’s head. There’s a bass like that I created every once in a while, but every note I played came out of Brian’s head. He definitely had it together.
Hal Blaine
Johnny Guerin played on the Paul Revere [and the Raiders] records. The Buckinghams. I played bass on that stuff. When they hired us for The Buckinghams they hired us for all the dates. And if we couldn’t make it, they’d lose the dates.
It was like that with Motown too. Motown use to move the whole band to get me and the drummer. Me and Earl.
The Turtles started playing their own stuff. We were doing the Beach Boys and we’d sneak into the studio and we’d say, “Look at them! They’re cutting their own music. How dare they?” They were really good.
About ’66 or ’67 they tried to get self-contained groups, but they ran up studio time, and they couldn’t get the right sound, and the playing wasn’t very good. So they went back to using studio players. It was about the first part of the ’70s that the groups came along that could really play and started knocking guys out of studio work.
Jesse Sailes was playing for Motown from about ’62 to ’64 — and then they used Earl after that. They used Paul Humphrey later on on a few of those things, and I forget which ones.
They cut a lot of the biggies back in Detroit too. But certain tunes like Bernadette, and Love Child, and I Second That Emotion, Dancing in the Streets, [I] Can’t Help Myself, Stop in the Name of Love — I’m telling you about the biggies that I know were all West coast. I played bass on the original My Girl. That was cut out here. I Was Made to Love Her was West coast.
Jesse Sailes was from Denver, see. They’ve got a little bit different drum feel. Earl’s from the French Quarter.
Jim Gordon did the Nancy Sinatra stuff and Wichita Lineman. He did a lot of stuff for Glen Campbell. He’s got a good feel. He’s kind of underrated because he’s soft-spoken. He doesn’t talk very much.
Sharkey Hall did some of the Phil Spector things. The early stuff. But, then Hal Blaine did most of it. That guy should have really gotten known. He played on some big hits.
L to R: Uncle Bob Fish, Cousin Gregg Fish, Scott K Fish
SKF NOTE: These are photos of Charles R. Fish Nursery in Auburn, MA. It was 100 square acres of tree nursery belonging to my paternal grandparents. It is also where my father, Chet Fish, and his two brothers, my Uncle Ivan and Uncle Bob, grew up.
My Uncle Bob introduced me to drums and drumming. In the first photo below, I’ve used a yellow arrow and the letter “A” to point out a window in the upper part of the “L” on the house. That was a drafting room for landscaping plans. It was also where Uncle Bob kept his record player on which, when I was age 6, I first heard Gene Krupa‘s China Boy and was hooked on drums.
There was also a tall wooden tube radio up there. It was about the size of a jukebox and it had great sound. My brother, Craig, and I loved to hang out in that room. We laughed every time a disc jockey would play The Coaster‘s Charlie Brown, not realizing that at age 8 I was hearing for the first time, Gary Chester.
In the far right of the photo I’ve market the light colored barn-like building with a yellow arrow and the letter “B.” That building was The Shed. Upstairs it held nursery supplies. And it is where I came upon, quite by accident, my Uncle Bob’s assembled drum set. I sat down, picked up a pair of drumsticks, tapped the snare drum, small tom, ride cymbal. With my right toes I tapped the bass drum pedal, striking the bass drum head. And the rest is history.
SKF NOTE: Here is something Max Roach told me in the early 1980s. I, of course, already had a high appreciation for drummers’ contributions to music. But Max’s words kicked my appreciation up several steps.
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